Tuesday, 1 June 2010

SNP TO DROP INDEPENDENCE MEANTIME-WELL YOU CAN HAVE MY RESIGNATION!


Alex Salmond thinks full Scottish independence should be put on the back burner and more financial powers for Holyrood made the top priority, according to one of the First Minister’s confidantes.
In remarks likely to dismay SNP members, Ben Thomson said Mr Salmond had told him the focus should be on making the Scottish Parliament “fiscally responsible”.  Despite the SNP’s long-awaited Referendum Bill being unveiled shortly, Mr Thomson said the First Minister was “dropping the ideas of independence for a time”.   Mr Thomson, chairman of investment bank Noble Group and head of think tank Reform Scotland, said the comments were made in a meeting with Mr Salmond last week.

I don't think Alex Salmond is taking the SNP in the right direction.  He should have been making a case for INDEPENDENCE at the General Election.  The GE campaign was a disaster, as I have said before on this blog.  I am sure that myself and thousands of other SNP members will be aghast at these comments and will be considering our membership,  if the Party are not taking us towards INDEPENDENCE. For FUCK'S SAKE ALEX, BE BOLD!  Don't fanny about with halfway houses! 

31 comments:

subrosa said...

Surely we've all seen the writing on the wall. For some reason the SNP has lost it's reason d'etre and decided, because it's now a major party in Scotland, to conform. Sadly they like being in power and power does strange things to people.

Then again, is this not perhaps a bit of stirring by the MSM? We need fiscal independence before taking further steps.

I'm being devil's advocate here.

UKIP for me said...

Well Alex wanted to support Labour in a coalition so I wouldn't be surprised if he scrapped the Independence referendum. The SNP have similar views to Labour. Belief in the global warming scam, EU, ignoring the budget deficit and hope it goes away, cover ups, smoking, drinking and eating controls on the population etc.
Join us in UKIP DL.

Dark Lochnagar said...

Rosie, I don't know where they've gone wrong. I think they can't see the wood for the trees or whatever way it's said. It's very sad, but the only reason I supported the SNP, was because they wanted independence. I don't really know what to say!

Dark Lochnagar said...

UKIPPERS, as you know I support many of UKIP's policies but they don't want Scotland to be independent and for me that is numero uno.

CrazyDaisy said...

DL

Watch this space don't jump to conclusions!

CD

Bugger said...

DL

You know my opinions re independence, the SNP and a devolution+ accommodation but, to summarise, the SNP is nothing if it is not a party going full tilt for independence.

Devolution+ risks being wrapped up and absorbed by the vanity of the trappings of token power; Ministerial cars, meetings with other foreign politicians, photo calls and press releases.

I have said that the performance of the SNP in the May GE was pretty rank and their thrust of shouting at Westminster from the hills was keich.

I hoped that Salmond had a cunning plan that he was keeping it so quiet in case he gave the game away, but.

Maybe he actual has a Mouser strategy and is sitting quietly but alert waiting for the mouse to come to the cheese and then wham!

Now, however, I am thinking that my frustration, about what I see as the lack of speedy progress, has more to do with me and my expectations based my clock ticking away.

Independence by the ballot box is a very much longterm strategy and even Eire, with the added dimension of an armed struggle and morale sapping guerilla civil war, took a long time to get where we are trying to go.

Salmond is an economist and, if he is half as good as he needs to be, he will see the coming financial Stalingrad that all the European nations are facing, Euroland and Sterling.

This is perhaps his Mouser strategy. The oil and the reserves off the west coast, in deep water, which probably is part of the Arctic mega reserves nobody is talking very much about for the moment.

The people who are frustrated about the lack of progress are of the age of myself; you know who you are.

It will come, just unfortunately not all of it in our time but I hope for enough to tell me that it is inevitable

Dark Lochnagar said...

Daisy, I've been watching this space for over 40 years. I was a junior SNP supporter when I was 12, am very nearly 56. If the SNP want my vote to be a Holyrood party and to accept the Calman proposals, they'll not be getting it. There are other irons in the fire currently, that you probably won't be aware of at this time being mostly out of the country.

Dubbieside said...

Dark Lochnagar

I think that you are reading too much into this. This is the Telegraph reporting one mans opinion of what was discussed at a private meeting.

It is no surprise that the Telegraph would put an anti SNP/Salmond spin on any story. (Just google SNP/Salmond accused and see how many times the Telegraph comes up)

Independence always was and will remain a long term project. Remember in May 2007 Alex Salmond said his objective was to prove that the SNP could govern responsibly. He did not go demanding independence from the day he walked into Bute House.

There is no doubt that Salmond will use every concession that he can gain from Westminster to build towards both his and the SNP long term objective which will always remain independence.

The meeting about Calman plus with Salmond involved will protect Scotland from the unworkable parts of Calman, and put more concessions Scotlands way. Do you think he should say "I will not attend I do not want extra powers for Scotland, I only want independence now"

Independence is now inevitable, what we are discussing is the time scale, and that is what has the union supporting MSM so worried.

This has only been reported in the Telegraph and none of the other MSM have picked it, yet they all love a anti SNP story. I think that Simon Johnson would like your reaction, he would think "job done" another SNP member gone, must mention that at the Friday Lunch Club, which will still meet even though Purcell is gone.

Subrosa

It is not often that I disagree with you but to say the SNP has lost its reason d,etre is a bit much.

Dark Lochnagar said...

Bugger, then perhaps an armed struggle is what we need. The SNP hierarchy need to realise the frustration amongst the rank and file and if it comes to pass what is contained in the above story, then there will be thousands of resignations from the SNP.

CrazyDaisy said...

DL

I am back having just been in Malaysia shoring up British foreign policy!

I digress, one thing my travels have taught me
is patience, I know you have been poorly of late but getting frustrated will do your blood pressure no favours or that porn site you've been visiting!

If violence is required then we as a nation have failed to persuade the remainder of the benefit and reality of Independence.

Alex is no fool, that I have learned in my research into what my politics are and where I would like Scotland to be in 20, 50 or 100 years.

We will be free I hope for you it's in this lifetime, Im happy if it just happens, when reincarnated Ill get to see it!

CD

The Young Oligarch said...

"then perhaps an armed struggle is what we need".

Nice one , DL !

So . Are you going to bomb me and mine , or will it be the other way around ?

If I hadn't been conversing with you for months I'd be irate at this piece of unthinking stupidity .

As it is , I think you need to get a grip and go back on the drink .

Dubbieside said...

DL

Joan Mcalpine has an interesting take on this story.

http://joanmcalpine.typepad.com/joan_mcalpine/2010/06/economic-powers-or-full-independence-its-okay-to-want-both.html

Further to my earlier post, I meant to ask, who should be given the benefit of any doubt about this story in the Telegraph, Alex Salmond or a Telegraph reporter?

P.S. I do not think that your comments about "perhaps armed struggle is what we need" does much for the independence cause, a cause which I realize you are passionate and committed to. That only give succor to the opponents of independence.

P.P.S. I am a lot older than you and I want independence yesterday, but I will still work as hard as I can for the SNP because it is coming.

Dark Lochnagar said...

Daisy, that was just a throwaway line about armed struggle. The way things are going I better take up the Bhuddist faith and hope they're right and when I return, I may see independence, because the way things are going it's going to take a long time.

Dark Lochnagar said...

Oli, the first thing to go is all the Orange Lodges, fucking hotbeds of Unionism. Then the Masonic lodges, just because we can and then Larkhall another seething bed of Unionism. Then the Jacobite army which is waiting in Aberdeen will sweep down on the Lowlands and give them a right good seeing to. Every bastard who hasn't got a kilt in his wrdrobe will be hung, drawn and quartered, to take revenge for our glorious Leader, William Wallace. So what do you think of that you Motherwell bawbag! ;-)

Dark Lochnagar said...

Dubbers, welcome to the blog and thanks for your interesting contribution. As I said to Daisy above the armed struggle line was just a throwaway! I have read joan's piece and I still think that the Calman tax proposals are a chance for our SNP Government to tie itself in knots trying to adhere to the rules and the allowances in raising tax. You obviously have some influence in the party,please use your offices to urge a move to a more centre right party. There is no point in trying to steal the Labour party's philosophies, because their voters are programmed
to vote Labour in any case. We have to persuade the Scottish people that independence is the way forward for Scotland and at the moment, I and others who are committed to the cause see very little point in this gradualist process. The SNP are due to get panned in 2011 and if we lose an SNP, Scottish Government then the cause of independence slips further behind. I perhaps am not as old as you, but I have seen this process happen before when Thtcher and Blair first rose to prominence.

Doug Daniel said...

Never take anything printed in the media at face value. Always remember that newspapers are in the business of making news, rather than reporting it. The Telegraph has absolutely no reason to print pro-independence or pro-SNP stories, so there is little to be gained from reading it.

In fact, if I'm perfectly honest,I think it's perhaps a little insulting to Alex Salmond to believe that he would think of "dropping" independence. This man lives, breathes and eats independence. It's what he lives for. If I see him at the Turriff show this year, I expect him to be tucking into an independence pie, although mince would perhaps be more filling. Personally, I think Alex has done more for the cause of independence than any other politician, and arguably more than any other person. The reason we have an SNP government is down in no small part to people recognising that he is by far the most effective politician Scotland has to offer, and it's important to remember just how incredible an achievement that was in the first place, to have an SNP First Minister. But now that we've had it for 3 years, people are taking it for granted.

When we eventually get independence, the (first?) SNP government will be looked on as a massive milestone. It was the first time I truly dared hope that I would see independence in my lifetime (and I'm only 27). This is why the gradualist approach works, because people are scared of massive changes, so you need to ease them into it. Just getting an independence option onto a referendum will be a massive task, so if we manage to get more powers in the meantime, then it's still progress.

The fundamentalist approach to independence would require a revolution - it's the only way a country will accept such a big change, especially one that has been told for centuries that it is too weak and needs to be propped up by others. But people will accept it in bite-size chunks. We just have to accept that some people from certain areas of the country will need a lot of encouragement to arrive at the conclusion as everyone else - that we need independence.

Just remember that the first independence referendum will almost certainly fail to get a majority "yes" vote, but will still provide an important step on the road to independence. Also remember that just being re-elected would be a massive step on the road, as there are still people that claim the SNP's victory in 2007 was purely down to an anti-Labour protest vote, and that it is unlikely that the time between now and independence will see continuous SNP government. If the GE result (which was merely a demonstration in how effectively Labour can fool this nation) is the worst that can happen, then we're laughing. As one of my favourite Killing Joke songs says: the struggle is long, the struggle is hard, the struggle is beautiful. I'd question the last bit, but the first two are certainly true.

Removing your backing from the only viable pro-independence party cannot possibly help the independence cause. At least wait until the result of 2011, and if you don't like it, then we can start talking about Salmond losing his way. But the GE performance was almost certainly nothing more than the inevitable blip in Salmond's otherwise exemplary record of deftly outsmarting our opponents.

Doug Daniel said...

Oops, that was a bit long and ranty...

Bugger said...

Dubbieside

How about opening your diary and dipping your quill in some ink?

Dubbieside said...

DL

Thank you for the welcome to your blog. I visit often but yesterday was the first time that I had responded, as I thought that your reaction to one mans opinion spun by the unionist media was a bit strong.

Just think, if unionist propaganda like that made you think of giving up your membership, what anti SNP effect does it have on the mainstream opinion that the SNP will need in May 2010.

The only influence I have with the SNP is I get to choose which streets I will leaflet, but I still do that willingly. I do agree with you about the Scotland advert, I have asked people in the party if they think we can persuade people to vote for independence so some prat can run up a hill and shout Scotland.

Doug Daniel while I envy your youth, I agree with your post, and I thought your points were well made. It is a marathon not a sprint, unfortunately for some of us a marathon is too long.

Bugger, Tris asked me this, I do not think I have the intellectual capacity to write a regular blog, particularly when there are so many SNP bloggers who do it much better than I ever could.

Dark Lochnagar said...

Dougs, welcome to the blog and thanks for your excellent contribution. It's nice to get new commenters on a blog like you and Dubbieside, because as far as I am concerned it means that the blog is alive and at least I am stimulating debate even if what I write is usually shite, but sometimes you must play the devil's advocate!

I would agree that getting an SNP Government in Scotland has been an amazing achievement, but at 27 you are still young. I have seen the SNP come and go just as quickly in waves as the Scottish fearties vote for the Unionist parties. If supposing the SNP lose in 2011, where does that leave independence? Put back at least 20 years in my opinion. The SNP have to prove to the country that we can stand on our own two feet and also rule ourselves adequately. I have plenty of Scotsmen who come onto this blog and are regular contributors who would not vote for the SNP in a thousand years. The SNP also IMO have to re-iterate their pledge to disband the day Scotland get's independence, becuase I for one would not be voting for them at that stage. I support the SNP purely for the cause of independence, nothing more and BTW, you can rant as much as you want, it's your forum, so use it as you feel fit!

Dark Lochnagar said...

Bugger, settle down, what are you insinuating? Would you care to expand your comment?

Dark Lochnagar said...

Dubbers, I am sure you have the intellectual capcity to write a blog easily, whether you have the required time it takes or basically be arsed is another matter. Please comment, even if the story is shite. We are a small but select community on this blog!

No I wouldn't give up my membership because of some shite in the MSM, but if one of the hierarchy was to say the same publically then that would be a different matter. There are some of us who think that, the gradulist approach has been wrong and the time for a referendum was probably a year or so after they came into power when they were still high in the polls and the disadvantages of being a minority Government hadn't been exposed. But only time will tell. This blog will always fight in the cause of Scottish independence, but whether the SNP in time will be the best conduit for that, I am not too sure. I found during the GE, that I was defending quite a lot of their policies that I basically didn't believe in like membership of the EU and their ethos towards a totalitarian, socialist state, so I believe there will have to be a realinement of my support at some stage.

Bugger said...

that was to Dubbieside

exceptional MSP stands down said...

Devastating news about Jamie Stone deciding to retire from Holyrood after 3 terms. A well known and respected LibDem MSP who contributed a great deal in his 3 terms at Holyrood. He will be sadly missed by the Scottish people.
His 'xenophobic' slurs on the SNP and £80K office desk were nearly as popular as his hard work to improve the berridale braes. Hopefully he will find work in his old profession rolling cheeses.

Dark Lochnagar said...

Bugger, I am the moderator of comments on this blog and if I am not sure what their meaning is or if anyone is insulting someone else, I will nip!

Dark Lochnagar said...

Without Exception, I haven't really come across Mr Stone and his comments much, but you make him sound like a right cunt. There you made me use the 'c' word and after Subrosa giving me a row as well! The Berridale Braes are as far as I am concerned a very worthwhile cause. I have crossed them many times on my way to Thurso to flog whatever wares I was pushing that year and I once went over the said Braes in a whiteout snowstorm and believe me, it was fucking terrifying and that's coming from someone who yomped across the Falklands for 48 hours.

The Young Oligarch said...

MISTER Motherwell Bawbag , to you !

Thank f**k you're not serious and still have a sense of humour .

PS . Won't it get a bit lonely in Ayrshire once you've exterminated all the Masons ?

Although , to be fair , the Jewish-Masonic Conspiracy does have much potential in future Scot-Nat Socialist ideological development .

Dark Lochnagar said...

Oli, I am sick of telling you, I AM NOT A FUCKING SOCIALIST.I am probably more right wing than you, well apart from the Queen and Westminster bit! I am however in favour of Scottish Independence, a feartie I'm not. Now, if you dare call me a socialist again, I am going to come over to Larkhall and drink you under the table in the Orange Ludge.

The Young Oligarch said...

I never said you were , DL .

Alec and his cronies are , however .

Dark Lochnagar said...

Oli, I can't disagree with that. But I think there may be a tinge of blue there somewhere. Remember the 'Tartan Tories' jibe?

The Young Oligarch said...

I'm not a Tory , DL .

I'm a Liberal Unionist .
Or in 18thC terms , a Whig .

I get very upset when the party I support is called the "Tory" party . Especially when they have the first Tory leading them since Lord Salisbury .

I would trust Salisbury much more , however .